Spiritual Ecology, Climate Justice & Systems Change with Abhayraj Naik

Hari:
Hello everyone and welcome to another Solvesustain podcast. Today I’m thrilled to be having Abhayraj Naik with us. Abhayraj Naik is an activist, academic, an educator, community builder, systems practitioner, and he works at the intersection of climate justice, spiritual ecology, law, education and social transformation. Abhay is a co-founder of the Initiative for Climate Action and has taught at institutions including the Azim Premji University, Krea University and the National Law School of India University. His work takes a transformative approach to climate action which is grounded not only in policy and technology but also justice, spirituality and systems thinking. So today we’ll be speaking with him about the practical challenges of building meaningful climate and civil society work from a systems perspective. So welcome to the podcast Abhay.

Abhayraj:
Thank you very much, Hari. It’s fantastic to be on the Solvesustain podcast, and I’m looking forward to the conversation. Great to be here. And thanks once again for the opportunity.

Hari:
Yeah, great to have you Abhay. So let’s get into understanding your work journey. So you’ve had a very interesting work journey and it’s been very creative with contributions across different domains and fields. And I certainly know this since, you know, I collaborated with you on some things in climate action at ICA, for example. So for the benefit of those who are listening, please could you provide a picture of how you work in climate action and sustainability and how you came to your work journey?

Abhayraj:
Sure. Thank you for the question. So someone once told me it’s always a great idea to talk about where one is going to, before one shares where one is coming from. And I think in the last few years, I’ve arrived at a realization that one big project that I want to dedicate the future of my life to would be the establishment of a large learning space that allows for an integral education for practitioners from across the world, which is established in India and is informed by the wisdom of nature. So that’s the future plan. Now, where I am coming from, there’s quite a few loops in that story. Let me start off by stating that I am a lawyer by training. And it was in my law school student days that my first interest in the environment and climate change developed. I was a teaching assistant for an environmental law and policy course as well. And soon after I graduated from law school, the first job I took up was with a radical environmental activist group, then based in Banashankari in Bangalore. And I, to this day, continue to maintain an association with that activist group. It was great learning. I got to work on a number of largely urban issues, including lakes in Bangalore City, the solid waste management issue, transport-related infrastructural development, and how it impinges on human rights, but also ecological factors. And after I completed about a year at that organization, I went to the U.S. for my further studies, some practical learning, and soon thereafter, I returned to India to teach at the university level.

Abhayraj:
And most of my life, including now, I continue to have a steady amount of time dedicated to formal university level education. I’ve been teaching. Initially, I started teaching courses relating to justice and the law. And slowly over time, I broad-based my teaching to go to other disciplines and other larger clusters of disciplines, including development studies, policy studies. Currently, I teach undergraduate students, and these are transdisciplinary courses, usually with a justice element to them and with an environmental element to them. And I try as much as possible to bring in experiential learning into my pedagogic approach.

Abhayraj:
Apart from the teaching, I continue to very strongly believe in the value of activism. And I think of myself as a climate and environmental activist. I’ve been part of a number of activist causes over the years. And currently, I’m quite actively involved with the National Alliance for Climate and Ecological Justice, which is a thematic forum of the National Alliance of People’s Movements, which is one of India’s best-known people’s movement alliances, about 25 to 30 years. Most people will be familiar with the Narmada Bachao Andolan and the value that added to India’s environmental thinking.

Abhayraj:
And just to wrap up, I think this response over the last few years, I’ve also, gotten slightly into the entrepreneurial mode, but with an innovation and environmental angle to my entrepreneurship. And of course, being very, very clear that I’m interested in improving the world through my entrepreneurial ventures. So one of these has been my first foray into climate data. It’s an online data platform called the State Clean Electricity Transition Tracker India. It was developed with the help of a fellowship from Subak in the UK. And I basically bring together, the platform rather, brings together in one place technical data and policy data at the state level, that will help decision makers in the transition to clean electricity. So that’s one venture I started and very excited for where it’s going to go to in the days ahead. About six years back, along with my friends and colleagues Ajay and Jay, I also started the Initiative for Climate Action, which is a non-profit which works on climate action in totality, but has chosen to, at least in its initial years, focus on climate education, on urban climate resilience, and on opportunities in the climate law and policy space.

Abhayraj:
And last but not the least, probably the most recent of these ventures is something called the Centre for Spiritual Ecology. It’s not a formal registered organization, not yet at least. And this is the vessel through which I bring together my interest and passion, both in spirituality and ecology, to one place. And I’ll share a little bit more about this, hopefully, as the conversation proceeds. So that’s my journey in a bit of an annotated form. I continue to be very, very interested in using my experience and learnings from the past in whatever I’m going to do in the future. And I must say that each step of that journey has been very, very important in allowing me to do the things that I’m thinking of doing today.

Hari:
Amazing, amazing. What a range. So I can see that, you know, learning education and teaching, and then your teaching also developed along its own arc. And then activism is another thread, entrepreneurship, and founding, co-founding several organizations. This is quite a range. So is there a thought process or a unifying thread or philosophy which helps you decide what to work on, especially when it comes to climate action, sustainability, social impact, that kind of thing?

Abhayraj:
Yes, definitely. I think there’s an indigenous elder whose words have stayed with me very strongly. And his name is Jim Enote. And his words are, you know, at least the term stays in my memory very clearly. That is, you should know your conditions of satisfaction. And for me, my conditions of satisfaction, which might be understood as this unifying thread, which allows me to say no and say yes, would be at three or four levels.

Abhayraj:
marginalized, vulnerable people, but also other life forms are experiencing. At the broadest level, I think somewhere along the way, I became very, very clear that everything I do must, in a very direct way, contribute to alleviating suffering in the world, right? And if I may add, I’m quite influenced by the Way of the Bodhisattva from Buddhist philosophy, the being who will not rest and chooses to be born again and again as long as there is suffering, right? And for me, I think obviously that’s a very, very tall aspiration, to aim for, but I don’t do anything that does not directly show me how it’s going to respond to the suffering that impoverished,

Abhayraj:
So that’s the highest level. I think more tangible and more direct, I’m interested in work that is interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary. Even in the environmental space, I try to avoid getting located in a context which limits my ability to either solve or to ask questions from multiple domains, right? And particularly with the environmental and climate work, you have so many different disciplines and domains operating, not least, let’s say, a technology, engineering, applied dimension, but also a philosophy, anthropology, sociology, and all of the natural sciences, right? And I look for opportunities or contacts or projects or collaborators, who wear that interest in interdisciplinarity and transdisciplinarity on their sleeve and are actively encouraging exploration that is, taking on this character.

Abhayraj:
I think the third point is to try and not do something which already has a lot of attention and buzz. In my own approach to things, I’m interested in underserved causes. I’m interested what in other vocabularies might be called new frontiers, right? Somewhat underexplored pathways and that’s where I like to add value. I like to really build things where not many things exist, usually in collaboration with others. And that’s where I learn the most. I feel the most alive. I am very excited.

Abhayraj:
And I think just to end off my fourth and final criteria, and this is actually a criteria which is quite specific and quite often results in me saying no to some opportunities and contexts. I look for an integral approach that straddles the inner and the outer, right? So while I’m very interested in “doing things that save the world”, I do believe just as a matter of ontological clarity that the change has to happen from within, right? And so when there is a possibility of an integral approach that embraces inner work along with outer work and at both levels this work is systemic, that is of great interest to me, right? There’s inner system work and there’s outer systemic work. And if there are signs of this in a project or an opportunity, that really becomes a green flag for me.

Hari:
So this is a really thoughtful approach to choosing what to work on, what not to work on. And I really appreciate that you’re saying that change comes from the inside, from the inside and from the outside, like first within, then as well outside. When it comes to these interdisciplinary, transdisciplinary sorts of projects, do you find that there are challenges when it comes to communicating in that regard, like in the Indian context, for example, where people sometimes designate themselves by their super expertise in something and may not be very familiar with the type of crossing disciplines sort of work which climate action, sustainable development might require. Do you ever have challenges there?

Abhayraj:
For sure. I mean, I think there’s always going to be challenges and there’s going to be longer timeframes involved in converting opportunities, or sealing the contract on how to take forward a project or a particular initiative. But I think for me, that is essential and that is rewarding in itself. And I am not really interested in sort of engaging with everybody and sort of like scale just in terms of pure larger numbers doesn’t attract me. I’m more interested in relational quality. I’m more interested in value that is generated in and through respectful, careful conversation that plumbs the depths of what is possible. And so while, of course, there is, I think, in general, a bias or a default setting, which is more oriented towards let’s get specific, let’s narrow it down, let’s really drill down within these parameters.

Abhayraj:
could be a client or it could be a community I’m working with or it could to the grain of at least the mainstream education system in India, just be an interested citizen who’s also involved in the same environmental issue. that for a lot of people initially, it is slightly uncomfortable and it’s slightly underdefined. Once that conversation is gone into, quite often there are people who see the But at least in my conversations and in my collaborations, I’m seeing increasingly value of a, let’s say, larger canvas and acknowledge that this is an emergent field, right? an acknowledgement that this is the way to go. I mean, I think emergence and staying with the uncertainty obviously is uncomfortable And I find more than enough interlocutors and collaborators who see the light, for a lot of people. And it’s so difficult, opposed of my approach if I’m given an opportunity to discuss it with them. So the challenge is there, but that challenge is, I think, quite exciting to engage with and it allows me to find the right kind of people who I want to work with. Once I express my point of view and once I explore what is the problem with the person, it

Hari:
Thanks for that insight, Abhay. I think it’s really useful to have somebody of your depth be able to talk about the process of working through understanding problems and maybe solutioning for them, even where it involves discomfort and conflicts with the well-defined categories of our traditional education system, which may be insufficient to support this new kind of collaborative and transdisciplinary work. So coming to that, can you talk a little bit about the Initiative for Climate Action, which you co-founded? What are the vision and mission behind it? And of course, how it engages some of these transdisciplinary aspects as well.

Abhayraj:
Thank you for that question. So the Initiative for Climate Action is really dare say even toxic, mainstream work culture. one of my dearest ventures and I’m so invested in where it’s going to go to And so we wanted first and foremost to acknowledge the value of people and the in the days and years ahead. value of good relations between people. We started on Earth Day in 2020. And as you can imagine, our first years were a pandemic year. So a lot of our work happened online using a whole bunch of technological tools to stay connected, to create a sense of community, and to design, implement our early programs. And from the outset, the three co-founders, Ajay, Jai and myself, were very, very clear that we wanted the culture of the Initiative for Climate Action, to be a response to what we saw as a very harmful, I

Abhayraj:
but we were thinking in the language of, emergence and deeply systemic work where we really listen very carefully to what the ecosystem wants and we venture forth, And sort of going back to the point of inner and outer that I’ve alluded to to use Donella Meadows’ words, into that rabbit hole and see where it takes us, right? in our conversation, we also wanted the Initiative for Climate Action to be a space that allowed for, restorative, calm, and healing within those who were working on climate action. And for us, it was, and it continues to be a very, very experimental process, right? We had a mainstream Section 8 non-profit company, but we were thinking in the language of community and movement. We had three-year, five-year and one-year strategic plans,

Abhayraj:
The way in which we chose to describe ourselves, you’ll still see this, for example, on our website and on our, LinkedIn profile, etc., is a non-profit company with a vision to catalyze, enable, and accelerate low-carbon and zero-carbon futures of justice and sustainability. And I just want to underline the word futures and the word justice, right? So we… continue to think that unlocking the imagination and having, embracing a vision of the future and allowing the future to guide us as to where we should focus and what we should do, is very, very important for the Initiative for Climate Action. And no matter what we choose to do, we do have that ethical pre-commitment to justice and, of course, sustainability. That comes from the area we have chosen to work on.

Abhayraj:
or pathways or mechanisms for these connections to happen. And I’m talking at different scales, at the scale of Bangalore City, where the three co-founders are from, and where many of our community members are, to Karnataka, to India, to a global level as well. And in terms of responding more to the vision part of it, we also saw that this would be work that would require an orchestration between many moving parts and many types of thinkers and doers, right? And we noted that there was currently some kind of need for this connective tissue, but there were very few other players

Abhayraj:
a community and in our heyday, in the first wave of our activity, climate resilience with a focus on decentralized climate resilience at we were about 45 of us lawyers, technologists, activists, teachers, the ward level in Bangalore City. scientists, so on and so forth. And the third was in the climate law and climate policy space. We arrived at three pillars of work. One would be on climate education. And we began our work just exploring possibilities for climate litigation. And we continue to work at the urban local level in Bangalore, The second would be on urban but also at the national level and at the international level through our collaborations. And just to, I think, close out where we launched our initial programs, we, after a lot of experimentation and a lot of trial and error and very many meetings and discussions and creative activities and exercises, etc.. As

Abhayraj:
So the ICA, the Initiative for Climate Action, had a beautiful run for about four years. And in 2024, I think as more and more people returned to regular working from their office spaces and as also the co-founders, perhaps began to feel a little bit tired or other ventures we were involved with took priority, from 2024 onwards until earlier this year we’ve been mostly in a holding pattern, a kind of pause where our community has continued to grow. We are almost at 70 or 80 people on our mailing list, but our programs and our projects were down to the bare minimum. And it’s only earlier this year that we have recommenced our activities. And I think it’s a great opportunity for us to learn from the first wave and be quite mindful and intentional and specific about what we do in the second wave of our activities.

Hari:
That’s really fascinating. And as somebody who was part of the first wave, I do remember those days myself. And I look forward to further participation as a community member.

Abhayraj:
Oh, yeah. You were one of our most fantastic community members, if I may say so. I learned so much from your systems change workshops and things like that. I remember the mapping exercises you taught us about and helped us through, etc.

Hari:
We learned those things together and maybe we can discuss more about that in some community meetings ahead. I think really for me, the key takeaways were rabbit holes, of course, from Donella Meadows thinking, listening and regeneration.

Hari:
And so coming to regeneration, can you talk a little bit about why spirituality might be needed in ecology and how you see this practically through the Centre for Spiritual Ecology, which is your latest co-creation effort, which you are working on?

Abhayraj:
Sure, thank you. So, I think I’ve already alluded in part to this motivation, which is a, bird sing early in the morning when I woke up early or, recognition that relational value, relational beauty, relational depth is more really marvelled at a magnificent tree with the sky behind it, important than hitting some targets, right? that kind of awe, that kind of reverence, that kind of wonder, And that insight, if I may, when applied to the home we inhabit and the world we live, that kind of acknowledgement that, create together means that one begins whatever has created that has created me and we are part of the same Earth was conspicuously to acknowledge quite seriously our relatedness with the rest of life. missing for many environmental spaces I inhabited, right? And for me, for most of my professional life working in the environmental space, that soul power, that spiritual power, that, borderline mystical terrain of talking about being one with the world and recognizing that there is more to life than human life was missing. And I kind of saw that there was a dissonance between the beauty I appreciated when I, for example, saw a sunset over the hills or appreciated a

Abhayraj:
becomes a convenient sort of a placeholder or an umbrella to allow for the return of this, larger and actually more accurate perceptual framework, a framework that acknowledges our relatedness with other life, and a framework that acknowledges these things that usually get squeezed out. The magic, the awe, the wonder, the beauty, sometimes even the fear that comes in when one acknowledges that, And for me, I think it was David Abraham who said it once that the climate crisis this creation that we see around us is so marvelous and it is not of our making. is a perceptual crisis, right? This idea of the environmental and climate predicament we are located in being one that can be best understood as a problem of perception was mind-blowing, right? And that problem of perception is a problem, that is arising from seeing nature or the environment or water or the soil or forests or animals as out there, as separate from me, as something that I am not directly related to. So spirituality

Abhayraj:
And the Center for Spiritual Ecology is initiative to offer sanctuary for such community. We do this where seekers can meet other seekers, kind of thinking, but not only thinking, such kind of practice. And we do this in experimenters can meet other experimenters, theorists, philosophers, poets, farmers, artists can come together and once again try and stay with these things that have become lost, these ideas of stewardship, this acknowledgement of reverence, this idea of relatedness, and not at a conceptual level. It is deeply somatic, deeply embodied, deeply physical, psychic, but also soulful kind of way. And we’ve organized a few events. We’ve invited wisdom holders to make a space where their wisdom can be transmitted or transferred to those who choose to participate. It’s usually been very small groups. We had a place in the center of Bangalore City for a few years as well, which we have subsequently, since it was sold, we had to move on from. And we are currently continuing to invite people into the process of arriving at the fundamental questions that the center is interested in.

Abhayraj:
other parts of the world that have been on this journey and have been wonderful allies for us in thinking about what is spiritual ecology, why is it important, how does one do spiritual ecology, what are the sources that one turns to, what’s the difference between spiritual ecology and let’s say religion and the environment. All of these are well-traversed questions and there are partners and collaborators and other sanctuary spaces across the world, which have much wisdom on them. And we are slowly connecting with them as well. And over the last few days, in fact, we’ve been enjoying the revitalization. Once again, we let go of our physical center in March of last year, March 2025. And until a few weeks back, we were in a position of deep reflection on what we had done so far and where we wanted to go to. And there are other places, both in India, but also in

Abhayraj:
And it was just a few weeks back that we organized a wonderful gathering, at a heritage building, a 120-year-old building very close to the center of Bangalore City where we brought together our community along with others who are interested. And we once again reopened these questions around what is spiritual ecology and why is it important. And we had some great participation from some really wonderful wise people who contributed to that program.

Hari:
Amazing, amazing. This is so aligned, I guess. Like what I’m taking away is that there is this awe and reverence for nature and the feeling of oneness. And maybe the way in which we are biased to perceive things puts them outside of us in terms of relationality. And how can we reconnect to traditions of wisdom and operate through those modalities, I guess you would say, for an inside-out integrative approach. It really fits in with what you were saying previously.

Abhayraj:
See, with this kind of work, there’s also the risk of it becoming very navel-gazing, feel-goody kind of stuff. With the Center for Spiritual Ecology, we are quite clear that we do want to engage with the, messy, gritty, political landscape of environmental and climate devastation in India and other parts of the world, right? So the risk, and I personally also have a problem with, ways of life, but also bodies of knowledge, which are just sort of escaping from an engagement with suffering in the real world and the power dynamics that result in that suffering for some, while others benefit, right? And the Center for spiritual ecology wants to not look away from that terrain of inquiry, but also action, right? So it is spiritual, but it is spiritual ecological engagement that is, connected with the political and power-riddled world of deprivation as well as extractiveness that all of us encounter.

Hari:
Yeah, that was really an insightful description of what you do at the Centre for Spiritual Ecology. And it really leads into my next question, which is, how do you indeed engage meaningfully, you know, while having a spiritual approach, a systemic approach, how do you engage meaningfully in terms of climate action, especially given the current global and domestic context in terms of, you know, funding or the United States pulling out of the Paris Agreement, so on and so forth. How do you feel about that?

Abhayraj:
Thank you. It’s, I think, such an important question. And it’s a question which I have only incomplete answers to. And what comes to my mind first is, you know, this is a necessary part of the journey in our transformation of the world. We’re not really going to get to a regenerative future, a just future, an equitable future, a future where biodiversity as well as other kinds of planetary boundaries are respected unless we get through this context of increasing, let’s say, authoritarianism in a number of countries. Increased challenge with funding opportunities for mainstream non-governmental organizations and civil society organizations, threats of countries such as the U.S. pulling out of the Paris Agreement. And I dare say I’ll add also our existing context of war and violence that we are seeing in multiple parts of the world, including Gaza and Ukraine and so on and so forth, right?

Abhayraj:
It is only by going through this rather than sort of wishing this away, will we arrive at the foundational architecture and infrastructures for that world that we want, right? And so for me at the highest level I think, and this becomes difficult for some to countenance, this is an opportunity. It feels very much not like an opportunity. In fact, you’re seeing massive, massive disruption and suffering even within the NGO sector, just taking India as an example. But I think this is the bitter medicine that we have been waiting for. And in my line of work, I do see people, I do see organizations, I do see projects, I do see movements, developing the agility and the ability to respond to this challenging context, right?

Abhayraj:
There is no shortage of good opportunities to do alternative work, right? There’s always, I think, an incredible focus on the challenges and the harms and the problems with climate and ecological breakdown that we almost, in most registers, forget that at any given moment, there are an extraordinarily large number of fantastic initiatives, in India and across the world who are doing incredible work, who need more support .

Abhayraj:
And so I think this becomes an opportunity to, look more carefully for such initiatives, but it also becomes a learning moment for all mainstream NGOs, civil society, organizations, as well as large institutions to think about how do we change ourselves in this emerging context? What do we let go of that is no longer serving us? How do we respond to the possibilities that are emerging even as, for example, let’s say the U.S. Pulls out of the Paris Agreement, right? I think that’s a good headline. The U.S. pulls out the Paris Agreement and climate action is very, very difficult. At the same time, if one goes to the sub-state level, urban climate action has really, really taken off after Trump came to power. And after Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement, you saw so much more courage and so much more conviction displayed by municipal leaders within the U.S. At the city level, a large number of cities said, our national government might have pulled out, but we reaffirm our commitment. In fact, we’re going to double down on this. And so I think that’s really where you choose to plant your flag. At least I would advise people to plant their flag rather than getting caught in the narrative that only the negative stuff, only the closing windows are what is happening in the world.

Hari:
It’s almost like the obstacle is the way, right? And choosing a creative response and finding the architecture through that, it’s, you know, you have to go through it through that alchemy, I guess. I guess that’s what we will have to do before things really start becoming impactful in terms of climate action and sustainability, more impactful in India and globally.

Abhayraj:
Absolutely. And not for one moment am I suggesting, Hari, that it’s not going to be like a painful journey or many organizations and projects are not going to struggle or suffer. Or even at a country level, you’re not going to see formidable challenges that arise from the breakdown of a global pact or a global commitment towards accelerated climate action. There is going to be all of that, right?

Abhayraj:
Despite all of that happening, I think for truly serious actors, there is no way but through this. And this has to be the preparation that we should have done earlier. But this is an opportunity to do that preparation now. Because I don’t foresee that this is going to immediately change. I think we still have some more traversing to do in a direction where the opportunity space for impactful climate action is going to be threatened. It’s going to shrink. There’s going to be more technological disruption. There’s going to be more polyvocality in the global climate policy space. But all of that, I think it’s important to prepare for it now. And it was important to prepare for it several decades back. And many of us have been caught napping. We haven’t prepared well enough for it. We haven’t built up our financial sustainability or we haven’t built up our ability to work in the face of repression or we haven’t built up the linkages that we need to sustain us through these difficult times. Do it now will become an important time to do it.

Hari:
Understood. So that actually leads me to my next question that if we’ve planted the flag and we know what we want to stand for and work through the adversity can you tell me how this relates to for example the approach which you favor which is a prefigurative approach right? Can you explain exactly what that means along with some examples and how you practically do this?

Abhayraj:
Sure. So, one term that I recently got quite attracted to is this term, through-topia, which is not utopia and it’s not dystopia, but it is the idea of, living in the most sensible way in and through the storm that we are currently in the middle of, right? So, it is practical, It is grounded in the breakdown and the crisis and it allows us to live the life that we want of the world. And when I use the word prefigurative, I’m thinking about and I just invoke, the Indian educator Jiddu Krishnamurti’s sort of advice, living sensibly in a world gone crazy. I mean, I’m paraphrasing, but prefigurative work is of that sort. It is, you are the people you have been waiting for. So start living and start doing the things that you have been hoping for or waiting for.

Abhayraj:
think his last book was … From What is to What If, right? And thinking about transition towns and actually participating in the transition town movement allows you to welcome that regenerative, sustainable, non-damaging way of living in the world. But it has many other forms as well. It appears in intentional communities. It appears across the world. There are many deliberately developmental spaces, which I’m also very interested in. There’s a larger body of knowledge called metamodernism, which is quite optimistic about the future, while at the same time is quite critical about the present. So it’s not postmodern. It’s not extraordinarily critical, but at the same time And this might take many different shapes and forms. It might appear in the devoid of hope and optimism. form of a transition town, right? Rob Hopkins and his amazing work, It brings in that innovative hope, optimism, and ability to respond in creative which also has an element of future imagination, right? I ways while being critical of the power dynamics of the present. So you have these deliberately developmental community spaces in India as well as in other parts of the world. I have encountered many of them particularly in Europe.

Abhayraj:
right? You have governments, you have regional blocks that are doing things in a way that at least for the mainstream ideology in that space is straight out absurd. Some might call it suicidal or some might call it crazy, but these are really front runners, right? You can imagine, let’s say Patagonia a few years back or Danone, the yoghurt company a few years back, doing things that really disrupted the market logic of a large corporation in that space, right? Really acknowledge that there are other values that are more important and built those into their way of doing things, right? And you’re seeing this, take the example of a country, at a country level, a country such as Costa Rica, right, which does not have a standing army or the oft cited example of Bhutan, which says that yes, development is important. But let’s be clear that the correct criterion for good development is whether people are happy or not. But you also have companies,

Abhayraj:
For me, that’s such infallible logic. What use are your GDP figures or your big buildings or your multiple indices, financial as well as industrial, if people are not happy, if people can’t eat, if people can’t sleep well, if people can’t breathe clean air, if children can’t play and laugh and sing, right? So, prefigurative approaches and prefigurative politics are really a way of, welcoming the future we want, by living it in the present, by really creating these alternative paradigms, where a different, model of development, where a different sense of time.

Abhayraj:
If one was really provocative, one might even say that in prefigurative politics, time is freed of the rhythm of extractive capitalism. There’s a different account of time and value and what is the good life. And you see this in ideas of Ubuntu or Buen Vivir. You have different ways of accounting for good life and you have systems as well.

Abhayraj:
And coming back to the Initiative for Climate Action, when we started a non-profit, we were interested in being a prefigurative non-profit, right? How do we make money, life and work in the developmental sector in India are actually nourishing, actually healing, actually good for your well-being and your social life, right? Because the standard story you will get for most people is, oh, we are understaffed, we are overworked, there’s not enough money, life is so stressful, it’s so depressing, things never changed, I’m doing it, but I feel alone, right? And a prefigurative nonprofit would take these as realities and see what would it mean to do things differently in a way that we wanted the world to be. But the world is going to take some time to get there, but at least within our limited capacity at an NGO level, at an organizational level, at a residential colony level, a building level, at a city level, right? How do we do things in a way that embraces that future we want?

Hari:
Amazing, amazing. How inspiring is that? I really see the power in that and also having been part of the ICA community myself and of course being in the field myself it’s become clearer and clearer to me that we can’t, you know, save humanity at the cost of human beings for example, right? But in terms of the practicalities Do you have any practical advice for anybody who’s listening in terms of how to co-create or find opportunities to work regeneratively through a prefigurative approach? And, you know, how do they live with the risk? And is it for a small number of people to do? Or is it part of a viable career path? Is there something you can talk about there?

Abhayraj:
Sure. So, I think it’s definitely important for me to start off by saying that this is the path less taken, right? That by definition, it is a new path and it is a path which is almost, sort of trying to show the existing world that this is not the way, right? So it is going to be challenging, and it is challenging. But I think that noted, for me, there’s a whole range of wonderful opportunity. I like to recommend to people the Vikalp Sangam website as well, at least people based in India. I find that to be full of inspiring stories, there are about 2,000 odd stories. The website is slightly clunky and difficult to navigate. But the stories themselves are pure gold, right? There are people and causes and initiatives from the, north to the south, east to the west, across this country that is India, who are doing incredibly inspiring, incredibly rewarding and incredibly powerful things, right? And my advice to people is find something close to you.

Abhayraj:
If you’re able to travel, find something in a place where you want to travel to. the way to get into these relationships of trust, right? And show up there, right? This could be as simple as like a once a week meeting in Cubbon Park in Bangalore where a group of people, get together, sit in a circle, read quietly, then share their visions for a more just world and then leave, right? Or it could be a full-out eco-village community in Kashmir where everyone is off the grid, where there is composting happening, where the food that is consumed is being grown, da-da-da-da-da. The scales might vary, but 100% close to you or in a place where you want to travel to, there is an initiative that is worth showing up at, right? Asking questions about, offering your support too. And I think it’s not something that will sort of appear in your vacancies list most often, right? Most of these initiatives also operate at the speed of trust. So showing up, being interested, being curious, offering your support, is

Abhayraj:
And this is not representing the transition away from the current order to a new regenerative order. who are usually going to be living in ways of life that are looked something for everybody, right? I think much as I’d like to say that this is And the people in this space are always going to be a minority, right? upon with disbelief or suspicion. something for everybody, etc. They’re always going to be looked at with some amount of disbelief, I see it as a space that is some amount of shock, some amount of suspicion, in some cases with some amount of hostility, right? Until the day when that crazy way of living and doing becomes the way of living and doing, So that tipping point, whenever it occurs, and there will be multiple, causal factors that are responsible for that tipping point, until that tipping point is reached, this represents the space for a minority,

Abhayraj:
And I think if you’re keen to try this out, both across India, but also in other parts of the world, there are incredible accounts of how initiatives have succeeded, right? What have been the stumbling blocks, what have been the challenges, what have been the new needs, etc etc. So i think even if an existing initiative is just not doing it for you, I invite and encourage people to start their own initiative even if it’s a super super small thing right? Start something in your building, start something within your school, start something at your college level that allows you to not, meet these very, very damaging, very, very pernicious, that’s not how things operate. That’s not the way we do things, right?

Abhayraj:
You have the freedom to design your own prefigurative reading club. You have the freedom to design your own prefigurative cleanup drive, right? There are so many different things that you could start and do with a minimal amount of resources. You just need some time, some dedication and some care that you’re willing to give the work.

Hari:
That’s really inspiring, Abhay. So I want to talk to you next about another you have repeatedly used throughout this discussion. minority, I guess, which has something to do with the word justice, which So can you comment on the role of activism, especially since you are also an activist towards successful and effective climate action and sustainable development. And do you have any thoughts on how to ensure that activism plays a constructive role in climate action and sustainability?

Abhayraj:
Thank you. I love this question. And I too, I must confess, I’m always sitting with this question in a very, very personal way as I think about, do I want to continue being an activist? At what risk am I thinking about activism? Does it really matter? What does it mean to be an activist when one is also working with, let’s say, a large private university or consulting with the government? So this is a very alive question for me.

Abhayraj:
would have business as usual continuing in ways that were truly damaging to the environment, right? And so while somebody taking paint and throwing it on a priceless painting or gluing themselves to a plane sounds a bit too much. What it has the effect of doing at a systemic level is making policymakers recalibrate. And let me answer it in a few different ways. I think one point to acknowledge and note, and I’ve made this point before in conversations around climate law and policy in India, etc., is that the existence of activists and activism really shifts the Overton Window of what is possible and what is reasonable for policymakers, right? If you didn’t have, let’s say, Greta Thunberg and the Extinction Rebellion activists and say no to oil activists, etc., etc., you

Abhayraj:
What a very, very provocative or very, very ambitious lawsuit or a petition, or even a policy demand might represent, right? Because the policymaker is now thinking like, okay, these guys want us to get to net zero by 2040. That’s ambitious. But at least it’s not as crazy as trying to ground all the planes in Heathrow Airport, right? Or saying no to any more fossil fuel exploration in all of South America, right? So what activist demands and causes do is they recalibrate, I mean, that is this term from the policy literature, the Overton Window of, the window of what is actually plausible, what is considerable for the policymaker, right? And I think that is something that absolutely must be acknowledged and has played such an important role with the environmental cause in general, but also with the more recent climate cause.

Abhayraj:
Two, I think in some situations when policy initiatives, when progressive business initiatives, when even, everyday activism that you see and the activism that has almost become so sometimes being an activist is the only thing that will work in a context minorities within the government or the status quo and their efforts are absolutely, a business for some activists is not what I’m alluding to here. where everything else is not working. politically rendered, I’m thinking about the activism of someone like Gandhi. ineffective, activism is the only thing that can break through. This Gandhi is an activist. Gandhi is someone who works with people and who disrupts the logic of the existing order. And the activism of a satyagrahi was the only thing that got through the absolutely until then impenetrable fortress of the colonial order. And so there will be some moments when activism is the only way forward. Activism becomes something that is required for everyone to do. One of my favorite thinkers from within the world of law and society, Professor Upendra Bakshi, has very powerfully written about the dangers of not being an activist judge, in a democracy or in a constitutional order. And

Abhayraj:
satisfying, right? It is challenging. It is not easy work. It is work where the odds are usually stacked against you. And finally, and I’ll just end with this, I think activism is incredibly good fun, right? It is work which is fully emergent. You don’t really know what will work, As an activist myself, I can tell you have met the most beautiful people in how it will play out. It is multi-tactical. the world and I’ve had the most wonderful encounters, the most amazing learning It is multi-disciplinary. It is collaborative. experiences, the most beautiful creative moments, And it really allows you to learn fast, learn in a way that is engaging, in activist company, right? and it builds you up to do many other things, right? And one could romanticize it and talk about love stories and da-da-da-da-da-da, all of that is also there. But even without talking about it in that romantic a context, activism is so, incredibly

Abhayraj:
So even if people are not going to be activists or are clear in their minds that activism is not for them, as a career educator, I feel it’s important for me to point out that you will build up some of the muscles and skills that you really need for big challenges in life by being an activist, right? So even from that very narrowly instrumental perspective, it’s worth trying out it’s one of the few non-colonized, spaces where liberation and creativity and spontaneity still proliferate in the world.

Hari:
Thank you for such an interesting and thoughtful answer Abhay. It really gives food for thought. We’re coming to the end of the podcast interview now. If you would have asks from anyone in the system- maybe government, industry, young people others what would those asks be? And these asks are obviously towards better outcomes in climate action and sustainable development.

Abhayraj:
Thank you. I think my big ask of the government, particularly the government in India, is to allow for… Creative, distributed creativity and distributed power, right? So, I think for too long in India, the government has sort of hegemonized the role of the climate actor. And unfortunately, things continue to be very, very centralized. Cities don’t have the power to actually do things when it comes to city-level climate action planning. States have very little power to do things, even for matters that are at a state level. And in general, whether at the municipal level, at the state level or at the national level, the government continues to, sort of keep very careful control over the decision making and even the experimentation in the climate action space.

Abhayraj:
kind of models and of course it could be done in a kind of iterative and carefully sequenced way, but we really need to unlock, the incredible possibilities that are there both within industry as well as within civil society when it comes to responding to India’s environmental and climate problems, right? And I think it would be wonderful if that is actually inverted, where the government really encourages as much, private participation as much experimentation. It could be through sandbox

Abhayraj:
in forest governance and who gets to use or live in or travel through forests, et cetera, et cetera. And this unfortunately is something that has just stuck from Independence until now. You take the forests in India as a paradigm example, they are so carefully controlled, right? And many will remember the, eminent ecologist Madhav Gadgil, who we lost recently, who throughout his life kept making this case about how we need to democratize decision-making, especially when it comes to who gets to participate

Abhayraj:
So I think that’s my one big ask. I have many small asks of business and of educational institutions and of philanthropists, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the big player for me in the Indian context continues to be the government and the state, And they are the big lever in the systemic operation as well. That’s where if we can actually change our worldview that the government can do the job right to a worldview that, the government stepping back will do the job right, that’s where we’re going to really see big gains in the climate action space.

Hari:
We’re coming to the end of our interview. So is there any advice which you would like to give to young people or others who want to transition into a career or a calling in climate action, sustainability, sustainable development, social impact?

Abhayraj:
Yes, thank you for this question. Number one, it’s not really advice, it’s a validation and affirmation. I want to say absolutely do it. It’s a space that needs you and it’s a space that is going to become more and more important with every passing day. Every job is going to be a climate job anyway. So because climate change is going to and is influencing every kind of vocation, profession and industry. So I firstly want to, affirm and validate any choice to enter into the space

Abhayraj:
not really specific to this area it’s more like life advice that is show up, and do things yourself even if the opportunities are not coming to you right so show up where the action is happening I think the well-known, leadership coaches talks about leadership as a contact sport right showing up is half the game so show up to where good things are happening and even if you are not getting the perfect job the perfect internship the perfect project, what you need to do try and do it yourself with the minimal resources even if And I think the second it means a post on your LinkedIn or a small meeting with your friends, piece of advice that I want to give out is.. It’s make it happen and see what happens then, right? Because the minute you make it happen in some way, that’s your first prototype, you’re already getting signal from the system. You’re already beginning to realize that, oh, I really like this. Oh, I’m good at this. Oh, I’m not good at this. Oh, I need to change this, right? But unless you do it in some way, you won’t get that very valuable input. So show up and do something yourself, even if you’re not getting the opportunities from the larger ecosystem around you.

Hari:
Thank you so much Abhay. That was so inspiring and just wonderful to see your approach. Crossing so many different traditional boundaries. Thank you for being with us on the Solvesustain podcast and goodbye.

Abhayraj:
Thank you, Hari.

Hari:
Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.