Circular Packaging Systems with Anjali Patil

Hari:
So today we have Anjali Patil for the first Solvesustain podcast interview. Anjali is a climate entrepreneur who’s working on the problem of waste and circularity. And she is super keen on solving the problem of packaging waste, especially for fast moving consumer goods. So, great to have you on the podcast, Anjali. And as a start, could you please introduce your work journey and interests?What problems is your company working on and why are they important towards the goal of achieving sustainability?

Anjali:
Thank you, Hari. Thank you so much for hosting me in your podcast series. I think it’s a great platform for others to learn and for me to learn also. So thank you so much for this. Sustainability, you know, is often looked upon as a luxury right now, but very few of us have started to realize the impact of not practicing it, right? So, you know, a lot of times, weird questions ponder in my head like a little kid,about what would it take, what would it cost to build another planet like ours that supports life the way it does right now? What, it took about 5 billion years for the Earth to take shape the way it is? And even if we had all the AI that we have right now, are we capable of building such a sophisticated system in that time or lesser, right? I mean, we are still trying to understand how complex our system is and how things work in tandem without being broken. So this is one part of it. The other part of it, I think, is being sensitive to how intricate and complex and irreplaceable our system is that we are a part of and how we can appreciate it. But of course, not everyone is obliged to feel that way. And hence, we are here in the form of climate warriors and sustainability, right? And I have always been inclined towards sustainability as a topic, as a practitioner.

Anjali:
And hence, when I left my corporate job, my first venture was around trading in organic and natural products in my retail store. As I spent some time in the business, I got introduced to terms like climate change and carbon emissions. I started reading about it and trying to understand the science behind all of it. So this got me really, really interested. And at the same time, in my store, I know I had a lot of eco-conscious customers politely asking me, why do we need to pack products in plastic packaging? I had no choice because I was just a reseller. But that’s when reuse as a business came to my mind and I’ve been working on it since then. And you know as a person generally I’ve just been interested in always trying to find the need to fix a system and its operational inefficiencies and that’s what excites me and that’s what keeps me going right and material waste is is a huge problem at the moment in our society right so we have limited landfill space recycling has its own limits and challenges now we have a chance to create a brand new system that addresses the root cause and make system make system shifts. And reuse has so many applications in the economy to reduce material waste. So it just feels like, you know, the right time to step in to address it with new and improved methods.

Anjali:
So at the core, my company is working on the problem of reducing the single use packaging waste from everyday consumption products, like food, beverage, home care, personal care, right? And today, a very small percentage of this packaging waste gets managed through recyclers, which is a downstream solution, right? And in the recent years, we’ve also seen a lot of waste-to-value products that divert the waste from landfills. However, keeping the rate of the production of packaging material, there is a need for more upstream solutions that tackles the waste. And that’s where we come in and that’s what we are building. We’re trying to tackle the waste and trying to prevent the waste from getting generated in the first place.

Hari:
So this is great. You’re not working on just recycling. You’re working on an upstream solution to actually prevent the waste from ever being created in some sense, right?

Anjali:
Yes, absolutely.

Hari:
So this leads into my second question. So can you explain your understanding of the circular economy concept and how [your] concept fits into the circular economy? Maybe you can unpack what circularity is as opposed to linearity and why the transition might be important and in which sectors it might be important. Like why is this important towards achieving sustainability?

Anjali:
Sure. You know, it’s really funny that when the concept of this reuse came to me and I wanted to implement this, so we started implementing with reusable bags, right? So I would ask my customers to come back with the reusable bags that we gave the first time and ask them for a refill. And when I started working about that, I didn’t know about a term called circular economy, right? It’s just that when I got so deep into the topic, I realized, you know, that there is already so much of work happening around it. So that was really funny. But no, and recycling has been around for long and we know now that it is not sufficient. So we already established that fact. And there’s a lot of commendable efforts in helping clean up the mess. But can we avoid that mess in the first place? It’s possible. So how do we prevent it? So to me, circular economy is not just about converting that process of take, make, through to, you know, to a take, make and keep. But what is the support system that’s needed to prevent the material manufacturing in the first place, right? And designing for lesser waste and reuse. So that’s my, that’s what I, that’s how I would look at it additionally.

Anjali:
And, you know, so I’ve, I’ve, I read a lot about what’s happening, not just with plastic waste, but also with other types of material waste, because so I, so I learn about, so I get to learn and I get to implement as much as possible. So while i was doing that i came across this information that currently the amount of textile.

Anjali:
Material garments that’s that’s lined the global stock is almost six times its actual demand right that’s a lot material is resources and resources is money and hence you would be saving a lot of money when we are able to find better use of existing material or finding ways to reduce the material production right and with sectors i mean there are plenty firstly there’s the packaging waste from the fmcg and retail sector which is where we are focused on and then there’s textile and e-waste and construction demolition right so a number of these material wastes have the opportunity to participate in a circular model so the impact of linear economy is so evident in the Indian context, because as a nation, we are about 16-17% of the global population. Then it becomes really imperative to push for these models, circular economy models.

Anjali:
And I also think that not-for-profit organizations or organizations who are advocating for lesser ways should support research-oriented work from a corporate lens and try to understand and document what does it take for climate tech companies to provide these products and services so corporates can use it and create significant impact and tangible impact.

Hari:
So one thing which you mentioned is that there are many different sectors which are creating waste and this waste is stacking up and it’s inefficient to think only in terms of recycling. So would you say that in circular economy, it’s important to route waste from one sector into a supply for another sector, something like this? Is that part of the concept?

Anjali:
I’m really glad you got that up, right? So the way I look at it is when a product is designed for something and when it goes back to that same purpose, we are able to control that economy much better rather than when it becomes a part of another product, right? So for instance, when we are developing some waste to value products, right? So, to a certain extent, we’re trying to push the dumping of that waste into the land. So, for instance, when furnitures get manufactured out of waste, which is a great initiative. However, we’ll be closing the loop entirely when there is also a system in place to manage the waste after the end of life of the furniture. So, to me, you know, if packaging waste gets created into another packaging material, it would make sense rather than getting into another material or product.

Hari:
Basically, you’re saying that tracking waste and routing it across industries is more challenging than doing it within an industry in some sense.

Anjali:
Yes, yes.

Hari:
Okay. Are there any specific reasons for that? Do you think it’s because of the way in which industries work or it’s the unpredictability of demand and supply or it’s, you know, the need to buffer waste between industries? Like, would you have any idea as to what could be the limiting factor towards between industries, circular economy?

Anjali:
Yeah. So I think, you know, first of all, this waste value is something that’s come up recently in the past decade or so. That’s noticeable right it’s it’s a notable noticeable uh industry that’s that’s picking up and not much of thought has gone into the end of life management of that rather there’s a lot of focus on just how to create a new product right so there is no focus on the end of life of that product you.

Hari:
Think the end of life management should be factored into product design courses going

Anjali:
Ahead absolutely absolutely yeah that’s the reason why we are in this problem right now and for any new system that we create that has to be addressed.

Hari:
So getting into your company’s specific approach for transitioning from linearity to circularity, at least in FMCG, I think the interesting thing is that your company is dematerializing plastic early on in the value chain and doing this through a logistics model as a service almost. Can you expand a little more as to the kind of service you offer to corporates and how this dematerialization, like you’ve mentioned, it has something to do with plastics, but how does it have something to do with climate change and climate action and the obligations which corporates and even our country has towards the sustainable development goals?

Anjali:
Sure. So, so let’s like be established, right? So we are working on reducing the packaging waste. It’s not just. plastic. It could be any packaging waste, any material rather. So we help brands, FMCG brands, reduce their packaging material and costs, help them comply with the EPRs by providing our smart, trackable, refillable bulk dispensing system. By bulk, I mean that these dispensers can hold large quantities of an FMCG product. Let’s take rice, for example. So we provide these dispensers on a service model to the brands and brands would fill their product and send it to a location like a retail outlet where consumers need to carry their own packaging to purchase rice.

Anjali:
Once the dispenser is empty, they are picked up for cleaning and refill. So this is where ours is an upstream solution rather than finding ways to manage the waste after it is created. So our approach is not just to build the dispenser technology, but rather provide a full stack reuse service that manages the dispensers and the stakeholders involved in this as well. So this model basically shifts the packaging material from linear to circular. As the dispensers are reused, they are not recycled, right? They are designed for a high number of reuse cycles. And because the customers carry their own packaging, no waste is generated. A lot of people probably listening to this are aware of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. So if they recall the famous quadrant by the foundation, so we belong to the refill on the go quadrant of the solution that provides us, right?

Anjali:
And as far as how we are linked to the national goals and sustainable goals for corporates and the country as such. So I can start by talking about EPR as a framework. So EPR as a framework is a method to curb the waste and has been developed in several countries. We have this in India as well. Apart from that, you know, the government has developed a lot of other initiatives like Svaj Bharat and EPR, of course, which is under the plastic waste management rules, smart cities, Make in India. So our model ties in well with these national goals. And apart from that, we’re able to show a direct impact on a number of UN sustainability goals like responsible consumption, production, sustainable cities, climate action, etc.

Hari:
So you would say that, first of all, the solution which you are working on directly helps corporates in meeting their EPR requirements, right? And then apart from that, There might be many other benefits, which quantitative benefits in terms of carbon avoided or mitigated and plastic, which was never created and never landfilled, therefore,

Hari:
or even the energy required to recycle those things, so on and so forth.

Anjali:
Yes.

Hari:
What does EPR mean exactly? Why is it a big deal for corporates? Do they find it easy to comply with EPR? And, if they don’t find it easy to comply with EPR, do we have a situation where there are some policies, but the solutions which enable compliance at scale for corporates are missing, for example, and that is the kind of solution which you’re providing?

Anjali:
Yeah, so EPR is basically extended producer responsibility, right? It means that the onus lies with the producer of the waste. And in our context where we’re addressing the FMCG packaging waste, the EPR is a compliance that has to be managed and abided by the FMCG brands because the products are sold, the FMCG products are sold in single-use packaging waste, right? So, they need to comply with this either by using a certain amount of recycled material in their packaging or compostable material.

Anjali:
And I think we’re really happy to learn that reuse also as a target is featured in the EPR target. So companies have to 100% move to either recyclable, compostable or reusable methods of selling of their products.

Anjali:
So the issue, the challenge with recycling is, especially when it comes to food-grade materials, right, is the quality of the recycled material, the amount of recycled material that is available. In India, the recycling rate is higher than the global rate, which is at 9% to 10%. So we are a little bit better. However, there are several challenges with recycling, right? A lot of brands use hard-to-recycle material or non-recyclable material, the sachets, for instance, shampoos and all art films. First of all, they are hard to find. And on top of that, they are not recyclable or they are hard to recycle. And a lot of brand audits show that 60-80% of the packaging belongs to either of these two categories. So this is one challenge. And compostable material, biodegradable material, some of them work in industrial situations. It’s industrial composting. And when it is mixed as a part of the landfill, it’s not industrial composting. So it is still a challenge.

Anjali:
So, you know, so there is an opportunity for the recyclable material, compostable material, and selling products in reuse or refill format.

Anjali:
So, there is a chance for all of this to be taken up by FMCG brands to reduce the packaging waste.

Hari:
So, that’s very interesting. So you’re saying that the EPR means that if they generate some packaging as part of their product, then they have some responsibility towards reclaiming and reusing that packaging once it becomes waste in a post-consumer state.

Anjali:
Yes.

Hari:
And right now, they have two options for that. One is that they do the hard work of recycling, which is actually very hard sometimes. And the other is that if they use compostable materials, then it actually doesn’t become compostable given the type of landfilling which is happening in the Indian context. So they can’t legally claim that, okay, they never created that waste because they used a compostable material. Is that what you’re saying?

Anjali:
No, I mean, yeah, see, the compostable material, they can report that they have used compostable material because I think the Pollution Control Board requires them to submit certain reports about what type of material they have used. But what I’m saying is at the end of life, the problem of biodegradable, right, it doesn’t solve the problem, right? Waste is still generated and if it doesn’t biodegrade it doesn’t solve the problem.

Hari:
And if it doesn’t biodegrade then presumably under a strict EPR regime it wouldn’t be counted as the producer meeting their extended responsibility right?

Anjali:
Indirectly yes so the EPR would involve some proportion of all packaging to be reclaimed is it 100% or you know is it something in between?

Anjali:
So we are learning about that Hari so So, you know, in the next two to three months, we’ll be trying to understand a lot about the EPR landscape. So I have a couple of interns with me who are helping me understand the EPR landscape in India.

Hari:
Understood. So it’s an evolving landscape and it’s difficult for corporates to comply given the traditionally accepted solutions of recycling and biodegradable or compostable materials. And given, I suppose, our… Ever-diminishing landfill space and growing consumer and government concern over these over-packaging material, I guess it’s just going to get stricter and stricter. And what you are saying is that dematerialization and avoiding the materials themselves through Rio’s refill models is a third alternative, which fits well into the Ellen MacArthur roadmap of circular economy which can create value in terms of epr compliance by never creating many a lot of that material so you never have to think about recycling or composting it right

Anjali:
Yes so you know you know not not every product category is suitable for for a reuse format for a refill format but there are certain categories like you know that that are definitely good fit for this refill format And for others, we may have a biodegradable material. But a good mix of these three combinations of solutions could work well for reducing the waste.

Hari:
I think this is really interesting and one question which I would ask is the model which you are developing seems to closely meet needs arising from extended producer responsibility. This is a policy which basically instructs corporates how to deal with the waste they generate from their products. Do you need any other policy frameworks to be in place for your solution or your class of solutions to be successful, for the reuse refill models to be successful? Or can it be done on a purely commercial basis? And of course, this ties into the larger question of how circular economy needs policy support as well. So if you could share your perspectives on those.

Anjali:
Sure so you know policy support is something that i never thought much about until now and i think in in the field of in the field of sustainability and and climate change the kind of policies that are out there are tie in so closely right i mean there’s a lot of dependency on that so policy support definitely will help us right what what does it do it just it reiterates the importance of a need to bring business, right, to improve a situation. And it helps bring in change sooner with relevant changes, right? And with the way the leadership is evolving in countries and corporates and the culture of seeking feedback and making systems better, policy change should happen and it will happen, right? So the most relevant thing here now, the most critical thing for improvement in policy is around the, not just in our country, globally, I think, is the recognition of a reuse and refill method of selling products within the EPR framework.

Anjali:
And how the government itself can live these, can exemplify these policy changes. Another example is, you know, how can we make zero-waste events? There are tons of events that happen every month and annually. There is no proper policy around that. So imagine, you know, if a policy was created around that and government offices itself started to implement this zero waste event policy, what it would do, what impact it would have on the industry, on the public and for anybody else. So they are walking the talk. And so this is a great impact. And policy changes could also initiate more public-private partnership. A lot of these partnerships could emerge in the way that responsibilities for a problem are shared in some sort of a trilateral arrangement between the government, the corporates, the service providers, and the public where required. So, another policy fix that could help us, which is how the reuse infrastructure is developed. So, let’s take one step back at this moment. So, until now…

Anjali:
We were talking about providing a full and a complete reuse stack, right? So we touched upon the hardware, which is our dispensing system. We touched upon a little bit on the software part, which is how we manage the systems and the stakeholders. And now a third part is the physical infrastructure that is required, right? So we need places where we can collect it and clean it and store the dispensers. And how do we link this to the policy change? So imagine now there are again policies where that would help set up these reuse centers that could be used for multiple materials, right? So we start with like packaging material, but it could be enhanced and evolved later to multiple materials on similar lines like our material recovery facilities, right? This was built by the government but run together by corporate startups and the industry this would help de-risk the model at early stages and scale it as well and which is what we we want right now and coming to your question around the the commercial benefits right so do we want immediate commercial benefits or do we want long-term fixes of course if it was just meant for purely commercial benefit, there are several other financial tools to do it to help set up the reuse infrastructure. But the ideology behind setting up a reuse infrastructure with a policy support.

Anjali:
Is to de-risk the entire model, help it scale and keep the system from breaking. So yeah, so this is my take on how policies can support for full impact and a long-term commercial viability.

Hari:
Got it. So there are several things which the government can do to promote more circularity in manufacturing and a circular economy. And for your model in particular, the generalization of the material recovery facility model will be helpful in terms of physical infrastructure. And you feel that significant work is required to make the models work, you know, with the appropriate policies to support them. And a start could be the physical infrastructure. Do you also feel something like data sharing, for example, or data infrastructure it will be important to make these models work at scale. For example, so that we know where the waste is, how it’s being generated, in what volumes, and who’s responsible for it. And we can use this information in order to you know, track, so on and so forth. Do you feel data is also an important part of the policy support required for circularity in some sense?

Anjali:
Data is very important. So we, you know, a lot of companies face the problem of greenwashing because of the type of data that is published out there. So the way I look at it is and the way we want to build the system for the future is where we are able to publish this data directly to the regulatory bodies, right? There is no intermediate organization or person, right? So we are, the system generates the data as in when the transactions happen, the system is generating the data, we’re capturing the data. So apart from using it for other, you know, data analysis requirements, we also want to make it available to the regulatory bodies, right? So for instance, our pollution control board, or we have smart cities, for instance, so we want to be able to link it to all of that and when we link it to such things it also becomes open for public to access it so they want to know basically where they can drop off a used, their kids old frocks because they don’t want to throw it maybe it can be reused and repaired somewhere but they want to find a nearby repair service so they can use the smart city information to get all of this so this is where data sharing can play a big role Okay.

Hari:
That sounds amazing because I think there’s a lot of work for even the application of the software engineering skills and so on and so forth to build the rails on which the circular economy can run.

Hari:
Coming to something, you know, especially for your kind of model, which is a reuse/refill model. Can you talk about the role of standardization and the role you are playing in that and why this is important?

Anjali:
Sure. You know, so recently, like last week, I had to activate roaming on my phone. So I used my phone’s service provider app and it really got me thinking. So all I had to do was just select a plan and it told me that roaming would activate it the minute I land at a different place. And would this happen without any standardization? It would not. So you can just leave your home network, land in a foreign place and you can just get hooked onto a foreign network and continue to stay connected.

Anjali:
Standardization has so much to do with all of this. I mean, it just didn’t happen on its own. So it’s really crucial, even in any circular economy model, where several stakeholders are involved, creating standards help all these stakeholders and players work together, exchange data and assets. So if I have to take an example which is relevant to what we are talking about right now. So I’m going to take the example of let’s say cups getting reused among 100 coffee shops in our city. And we have a number of stakeholders over here. So they could be the cup manufacturer itself, the cafes, the reuse service providers and the end consumers also who could be taking it home and needing to return it. So if I take this reusable cup as an asset, and because this involves more than one stakeholder and another one which is a consumer itself, each stakeholder has a different role to play with the reusable asset.

Anjali:
This cup, right, it gets handed over from one stakeholder to another stakeholder. Each stakeholder has an own role to play. But the one thing that’s common to all of them is this reusable asset. So standardization then helps manage this asset and the stakeholders and the end users more efficiently and brings down the cost of the system basically. So it reduces the inefficiencies. so in the circular economy model right an asset is is like a is like a live object right where it has to continue to perform its job uh it that it was initially designed for for a fixed duration or for a use cycle right so it’s not like a use and throw when it is returned it has to continue to to use and we need a system in place to manage this this asset so unlike in a linear model where the cup is thrown, and it doesn’t matter how it is designed, what material is used. In circular economy, it is slightly different. And when we have standardization in place, this reduces friction and data exchanges is possible, interoperability is possible, and scaling is possible. And I need to mention another important topic over here when standardization is being talked about.

Anjali:
I’d like to introduce you to something called PR3, which is basically Global Standards Development Project for Reuse Models. So it’s been developed by a Washington-based organization called Resolve. And the standards are built in close coordination with the industry, academia, reuse service providers, and organizations that are advocating reuse. And I’m happy to tell you that we are associated with Resolve in this project and it’s a great effort by them. They’ve currently published one standard. So they have container design, washing, digital collection, system operation and performance and labeling as a part of the standards which they are developing.

Hari:
That’s really amazing to hear, Anjali. So what you’re saying is that a high level of standardization is required, especially given that circular economy has a well-defined post-consumer state. And in order to make products interoperable in this state, especially, and to track them, we need standardization for the data, for where they’re going,

Hari:
for where they can go to reduce friction, so on and so forth. And you are working on some of these standards to ensure that reuse and refill models are you know are taken up properly can you talk about whether you will be interested in let’s say contextualizing some of the reuse refill global standards for India like whether contextualization is required and you know would you would you be able to contextualize this would you need to trial and pilot with corporates, for example, to do this?

Anjali:
Yeah, so this is a topic which we talk about in these meetings, about how we can localize it. So that standard right now exists for reference for anybody who wants to implement it. And it doesn’t override any of the local regulations and policies that are in place. So for the Indian context, it would be really interesting to see how it can be improved or we can create a version that’s suitable for the Southeast Asian context, considering our workforce. And we already have a culture of reuse, which we’re moving away from slightly. But historically, we have that. So yeah, it’ll be really, really interesting to see how that works. And it’s something that I would be keen on to find out later.

Hari:
Yeah, I think especially since we have a more workforce-heavy sort of system, how does reuse and refill contextualize with that context, right? How do we ensure the social benefits and employability, so on and so forth?

Anjali:
Exactly. So this is a great thing for a great way to address this concept of just transition also. So we are often hearing a lot of organizations talking about the really bad conditions under which the waste picker community is working under. So imagine them transitioning into these type of jobs and this type of model. It would be a much more dignified thing for them. So this is a secondary benefit that I talk about when it comes to our model for the waste picker community. The primary, of course, is we’re trying to solve the problem of waste.

Hari:
When can we expect to see your product in stores and creating the impact which we’ve been talking about?

Anjali:
Yeah, so at the moment, you know, we are testing and planning some test pilots, you know, collecting feedback from industry, from end users. And really, you know, improving our business model, product design to see what works best and what has the most impact, basically, right? So this will lead us to developing, you know, to working on our product roadmap. So, and this is our focus for most part of next year. So hopefully later than that is when we will see in stores. So right now we are looking to partner with brands and communities. And interestingly, there is, you know, interest is getting generated. So we have been in some events. We’re doing some testing in local communities. And so there are some D2C companies that are interested in it. I’m going to discuss about how they can implement it. So, yeah, so we will plan next steps accordingly.

Hari:
If you had three asks from anybody, right, from consumers or corporates or policy people, anybody, what would they be towards making your model successful and creating sustainability impact?

Anjali:
Yeah. So pilot project is one. So if I start with the corporates first, I think the biggest thing would be asking for corporates to be a little bit more flexible and open to discussing the current problems with the startup world, the startup economy, and help us come up in ways where we can jointly address this issue and this and jointly address the way to handle this change. Right so it’s not just a packaging change or a branding change no this is a change right this is an underlying change basically so i’m sure there are ways in which we can we can discuss openly about this and you know and this will also help them discover a lot of solutions and you know just just me as a founder i’ve been a part of some incubation program and some accelerator programs and it’s amazing to see the type of products that are being built not just in my field right even in in in other fields it’s it’s amazing so i think that that discovery process has to happen sooner and faster and yeah so i think the point is if profits can have an open dialogue about the challenges and the possible solutions that that would really help help us and it’ll give them a chance to evaluate the solutions in the market so they can come to the right conclusions.

Anjali:
For policymakers, we’ve touched upon some aspects already, but in general, you know, if they could make accountability more transparent and stricter and enforceable also, right? And this is a great opportunity for policy to act as a bridge between the corporates and the service providers like us and help develop this market into a regulated market for circular economy businesses and reduce greenwashing in a way. Right. So specifically to EPR, you know, if it could be more stricter framework applied to the producers and, you know, if there is a way to also make the end consumers a little bit more accountable. So the fact that products are sold in packaging is because there is a market for consumption because there is a demand. So there definitely has to be some onus on the consumers also and which I don’t see anywhere. So hence, for policymakers, if they could make bold changes to nudge consumer behavior in ways that could be non-destructive and innovative. I’m sure there could be a lot of innovative ways in which we could do this. Which reminds me of one example that I read about in Singapore.

Anjali:
They were handing out vouchers to citizens to buy energy-efficient electronic devices. I mean, just handing out vouchers and imagine it’s such a simple idea, but it’s just so brilliant.

Anjali:
I just think that that’s a great way to involve the community, to improve awareness about what is happening and why we need to do it. And another thing which I wanted to mention earlier, which slipped my mind around policies is, so there’s this concept of DPI for climate, which is digital public infrastructure for climate.

Anjali:
I recently had the opportunity to present this idea for a challenge, right, where they were asking for ways in which we could use DPI for climate. And it just got me so excited. It was amazing. So we had proposed a system where, you know, we could onboard all the stakeholders of a circular economy model and make this an incentivization platform, basically, right? So it could be the corporates, it could be the retail stores, it could be the government offices themselves and the end consumers. So imagine all of these people are onboarded on this DPI and they get incentivized to being a part of the circular economy, right? and the way we had proposed it was that it could be done for any material, And yeah, so if we could have things like this and, you know, I’m hoping that someday that I will be able to, you know, create some impact in all of these areas. But yeah, these are some of the asks and requests I would have for, you know, corporate consumers and policymakers.

Hari:
Finally i just like to ask you for your message towards entrepreneurs entering sustainability and maybe also you know students who are graduating and others who are just entering the field and who are looking for opportunity like what are your key takeaways for them

Anjali:
Yeah so i’m sure it’s a lot of you know common messaging around this topic for people newly entering this field as entrepreneurs or for or for students and i’ll try to talk about something different right about what is a little bit unique to in this field of sustainability and camera change of course you know founders are driven by passion when they try to solve a problem but here in particular you know they need to look at at the problem they’re solving from a fix of fixing it from a systemic lens right if i could quote one example or draw another parallel to around, you know, a problem of education of underprivileged, of the underprivileged community and especially girl children in some really remote areas of a country. As somebody who looks at this problem and sees that the rate of education or the number of girl children that get educated is really low over here, if you’re thinking about building more schools, for instance, for these children, it could not solve the problem. Like you could build state-of-the-art schools, but the children might still not turn up because there is some other issue preventing them from coming.

Anjali:
So I think it’s important to identify the problem from the systemic length and not just from a superficial way. So there’s a different way to address the problem and ask the right questions. So in sustainability or in the related solutions, it could end up having a much deeper understanding of the system and the policies around it. And it’s not just about building solutions that ultimately, you know, are not able to sustain in the long run now. So this is one thing which I think I would like to highlight. The other thing is that you could call yourself a social impact organization or a not-for-profit organization, but it’s still running a business and it still has to be economically viable for you and attractive enough for the paying customers. So make sure you remember this aspect.

Anjali:
And last but not least, Hari, I think it’s definitely not a short and sweet journey. It’s not something that will work overnight. The journey is really long and enduring. It could take longer than you expect because of the type of problem that you are addressing. So currently now, we need to realize that we are challenging the status quo. We want to introduce change at a completely different level. So make sure you have the kind of patience and resilience to stay through and pull through. And I think with that, I wish all those climate warriors all the best of luck in their climate journey.

Hari:
Wow, superb, Anjali. Thank you so much. So those points really hit home, especially the systems thinking, right? Maybe we should have that taught in schools by default at some stage. Yeah, anyway. So thank you so much, Anjali, for agreeing to this podcast interview. I certainly learned loads from this and lots to think about.

Hari:
And I’m sure your thoughts are going to be very useful for whoever’s listening as well. How does anybody who wants to take you know something further with you get in touch with you for example somebody who wants to intern with your company or somebody who wants to trial something a pilot project with your your company or with you so how do they get in touch with you the

Anjali:
Best way to reach me would be through my linkedin profile hari so i’m quite active over there so I respond soon so that would be a great place to reach out to me.

Hari:
So thank you so much